Interactive transcript · 217 lines
Hey there, and welcome back to TalkCast Discovery, off the map, into the world.
大家好，欢迎回到 TalkCast 探索 频道，走出地图，走向世界。
Before we dive in today, a quick reminder.
在今天开始之前，先作个简短的提醒。
If you're enjoying this show and want to go deeper, come join the TalkCast membership.
如果你喜欢这个节目并想深入了解，欢迎加入 TalkCast 会员。
Our members get access to exclusive content that we keep adding and updating.
我们的会员可以获取我们不断添加和更新的独家内容。
Plus, you can join our Q &A sessions and discussions on everything from English learning to AI
此外，你还可以参加我们的问答环节，以及讨论从英语学习到人工智能的方方面面
technology and much more.
技术等等更多内容。
If you're already a member, thank you so much for your support.
如果你已经是会员，非常感谢你的支持。
It truly means the world to us.
这对我们来说确实意义重大。
And if you beg to join, just scan the QR code at the bottom of your screen with WeChat and you'll be
如果你渴望加入，只需用微信扫描屏幕底部的二维码，你就会
right in.
直接加入进来了。
Okay, let's get started.
好的，让我们开始吧。
So here's a fun question for you.
这里有一个有趣的问题想问你。
What if I told you there's a city in China that was already trading with the world before most
如果我告诉你，中国有一座已经在同世界进行贸易的城市，而在当时大多数
European capitals even existed?
欧洲首都甚至还未存在？
A city that's home to the oldest private library in all of Asia and a waterfront that's actually
这座城市拥有全亚洲最古老的私家藏书楼，其滨水区甚至
older than Shanghai's famous Bund?
比上海著名的外滩还要古老？
That city is Ningbo.
那座城市就是宁波。
And today, we're going deep into its story.
今天，我们将深入探索它的故事。
My guest is Nathan, a cultural geographer who spent two years as a visiting scholar at the
我的嘉宾是内森，一位文化地理学家，他曾在
University of Nottingham's campus in Ningbo.
诺丁汉大学宁波校区做了两年的访问学者。
Nathan, welcome to the show.
内森，欢迎来到节目。
Olivia, thanks so much for having me.
奥利维亚，非常感谢邀请我。
Honestly, Ningbo is one of those places that completely changed how I think about Chinese history.
坦白讲，宁波是那些彻底改变了我对中国历史看法的地点之一。
I went there expecting a busy port city, which it is, but I found something so much richer.
我去那里本以为是个繁忙的港口城市，它确实是，但我发现了要丰富得多的内涵。
It's a city that carries thousands of years of stories in its bones, and people there are incredibly
这是一座骨子里沉淀着数千年故事的城市，那里的人们极其
proud of that heritage.
为这份文化遗产感到自豪。
I love that.
我喜欢这一点。
So let's start from the very beginning.
那么让我们从最开始说起。
And I mean the very beginning.
我指的是真正的源头。
Because Ningbo's history goes back a lot further than most people realize, right?
因为宁波的历史比大多数人意识到的要悠久得多，对吧？
Oh, absolutely.
哦，确实如此。
We're talking about 7 ,000 years, at least.
我们至少是在追溯七千年的历史。
Just outside modern Ningbo, there's an archaeological site called Hemudu.
就在现代宁波城外，有一个名为河姆渡的考古遗址。
It was discovered in 1973, and it basically rewrote textbooks.
它于 1973 年被发现，基本上重写了教科书。
Before Hemudu, most scholars believed Chinese civilization started mainly along the Yellow River in
在河姆渡遗址之前，大多数学者认为中国文明主要发源于黄河流域
the north.
北方。
But this site proved that the Yangtze River Delta, the south, had its own advanced civilization
但这个遗址证明了南方长江三角洲也有自己先进的文明
going on at the same time.
在同一时期并存发展的。
Wait, so Hemudu actually changed the way historians understand Chinese civilization?
等等，所以河姆渡遗址实际上改变了历史学家对中国文明的理解？
That's a pretty big deal.
那真是件相当了不起的大事。
It's a huge deal.
这意义极其巨大。
The Hemudu people were cultivating rice, some of the earliest evidence of rice farming anywhere in
河姆渡人当时已经在种植水稻，这是全球最早的水稻耕作证据之一
the world.
在世界范围内。
They built these beautiful stilt houses raised above the marshy ground.
他们建造了这些高于沼泽地面的美丽干栏式房屋。
They made black pottery, carved ivory, and even had jade ornaments.
他们制作黑陶、雕刻象牙，甚至拥有玉饰品。
These weren't just simple farmers.
他们可不仅仅是简单的农夫。
They had a sophisticated culture.
他们拥有高度发达的文化。
That's incredible.
这太不可思议了。
So 7 ,000 years ago, people in the Ningbo area were already building complex homes and growing rice?
所以七千年前，宁波地区的人们就已经在建造复杂的住宅并种植水稻了？
And then over the centuries, the city became a major port?
然后经历漫长世纪的演变，这座城市变成了一个主要港口？
Exactly.
没错。
By the Tang Dynasty, that's around the 7th century, Ningbo, which was then called Mingzhou, was one
到了唐朝（大约在公元7世纪），当时的宁波 被称为明州，是
of the most important ports on the Maritime Silk Road.
海上丝绸之路上最重要的港口之一。
Ships sailed from there to Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia, and even all the way to the Arab world.
船只从那里航行到日本、韩国、东南亚，甚至一路到达阿拉伯世界。
It was a true international trading hub.
那是一个真正的国际贸易枢纽。
And the name Ningbo itself has a lovely meaning, doesn't it?
而“宁波”这个名字本身就有一个非常美好的含义，不是吗？
It does.
的确如此。
The name came about in 1381 during the Ming Dynasty.
这个名字产生于明朝的1381年。
Ning means calm or peaceful, and Bo means waves.
“宁”意味着平静或宁静，而“波”则意味着波浪。
So Ningbo literally means calm waves.
所以宁波在字面上的意思就是风平浪静。
It was a wish for safe seas and smooth sailing.
这是对海路平安、顺畅航行的美好祝愿。
Very fitting for a port city.
对 于一座港口城市来说非常契合。
Calm waves.
平静的波浪。
That's beautiful.
那真是太美妙了。
All right.
好的。
So we've got this ancient civilization, this booming maritime trade.
因此我们了解到了这个古老的文明，以及这繁荣的海上贸易。
But there's one landmark in Ningbo that I'm dying to ask you about.
但宁波有一个地标，我非常想问问你。
And that's the Tianyi Pavilion.
那就是天一阁。
Tell me about that.
跟我讲讲吧。
Oh, Tianyi, guh.
哦，天一阁呀。
That's the heart and soul of Ningbo's scholarly tradition.
那是宁波学术传统的核心与灵魂。
It's the oldest surviving private library in China.
它是中国现存最古老的私家藏书楼。
In fact, one of the oldest private libraries in the entire world.
事实上，也是整个世界上最古老的私家藏书楼之一。
It was built in 1561 by a man named Fan Chin, a retired government official who was passionate about
它由一位名叫范钦的人于1561年建造，他是一位退休官员，对藏书充满热情
collecting books.
收集图书。
So this is a library from over 460 years ago, and it's still standing?
所以这是一座有着460多年历史的藏书楼，而且它依然屹立不倒？
Still standing.
依然屹立着。
And here's the clever part.
最巧妙的地方来了。
The name Tianyi comes from a classical phrase that connects to the idea of water controlling fire.
“天一”这个名字来源于一句典籍名言，与“以水克火”的理念相关。
Fan Chin was terrified of fire destroying his books.
范钦非常害怕火灾毁掉他的藏书。
So the entire design of the library is built around fire prevention.
因此，整个藏书楼的设计都是围绕着预防火灾展开的。
He placed a pool of water right in front of the building and even put porous rocks under the
他在建筑正前方建了一方水池，甚至在书架下放置了多孔的石头
bookcases to absorb moisture and keep the pages dry.
用来吸收湿气，保持书页干燥。
That is so smart.
这真是太高明了。
Using water as both a symbol and a practical solution.
将水既作为一种象征，又作为一种实用的解决方案。
I didn't know that.
我之前还真不知道。
And it worked.
而且这确实奏效了。
The library survived wars, social upheaval, even theft over the centuries.
在漫长的几个世纪里，这座藏书楼历经战争、社会动荡甚至盗窃，依然得以幸存。
At its peak, it held around 70 ,000 volumes.
在其鼎盛时期，它拥有大约7万册藏书。
Today, thanks to donations and government preservation efforts, the collection has grown to over 300
如今，得益于社会捐赠和政府的保护努力，馆藏已增长到30多
,000 items, including some extremely rare Ming Dynasty records.
万件，其中包括一些极其珍贵的明代文献记录。
300 ,000!
30万！
That's amazing!
真是太不可思议了！
And I heard there's even a Mahjong museum inside the complex.
我还听说建筑群内部甚至还有一个麻将博物馆。
Ah, yes.
啊，是的。
That surprises a lot of people.
这确实让很多人感到吃惊。
There's a theory that Mahjong was actually invented in Ningbo, possibly by sailors who adapted older
有一种说法认为，麻将实际上是在宁波发明的，可能是水手们改装了旧的
card games to pass time on long voyages.
纸牌游戏，用来打发长途航程中的时光。
So the Tianyi Pavilion complex includes a small museum dedicated to the history of Mahjong.
因此，天一阁建筑群包含了一个专门用于展示麻将历史的小型博物馆。
It's this wonderful, unexpected detail.
这是个非常奇妙且意想不到的细节。
I love that.
我非常喜欢那个。
From ancient books to Mahjong tiles, all in one place.
从古老的书籍到麻将牌，应有尽有。
Now let's talk about something that I know you're passionate about, the food.
现在让我们聊聊我知道你很热衷的话题——美食。
Because Ningbo cuisine is quite unique, isn't it?
因为宁波菜相当独特，不是吗？
Oh, the food!
哦，美食！
Okay, so Ningbo cuisine, sometimes called Yong cuisine, is all about the sea.
好的，宁波菜有时也被称为甬帮菜，离不开大海。
The city sits right on the East China Sea coast, so seafood is king.
这座城市就坐落在东海海岸边，所以海鲜是当之无愧的主角。
But what makes it special is the flavor profile.
但真正让它与众不同的是它的风味特征。
It's built around three pillars.
它是围绕三大支柱构建的。
Fresh, umami, and, here's where it gets interesting, stinky.
鲜、鲜味、以及——精彩之处在于——臭。
Wait, stinky?
等等，臭？
Like intentionally stinky food?
比如故意做成臭味的食物？
Intentionally and proudly stinky.
特意且自豪地做成臭味。
Ningbo has this whole tradition of fermented foods.
宁波拥有完整的发酵美食传统。
There's something locals called the three stinks of Ningbo.
有一种被当地人称为“宁波三臭”的东西。
Fermented amaranth stems, fermented winter melon, and stinky tofu made in a local style.
臭苋菜梗、臭冬瓜，以及本地特色的臭豆腐。(注：亦指臭冬瓜、臭苋菜管和臭菜心（臭芋艿蓊）)
When you first smell it, honestly, your nose tells you to run.
当你第一次闻到它时，老实说，你的鼻子会叫你快跑。
But when you taste it, there's this incredible depth.
但当你品尝它时，会发现一种惊人的深度。
Earthy, sweet, a little funky.
醇厚、甘甜，还带着一点奇特的风味。
It's an acquired taste, but once you get it, you understand why locals love it.
这是一种需要后天习惯的口味，但一旦你习惯了，就会明白为什么当地人如此喜爱它。
I could imagine the face of a first -time visitor.
我能想象出初访者当时的表情。
But okay, for someone who's maybe a little nervous about the stinky stuff, what would you recommend
不过好吧，对于那些可能对臭味食物有点发怵的人，你会推荐什么呢
they try first?
他们首先尝试？
Start with Ningbo Tang Yuan.
从宁波汤圆开始吧。
That's the dish I'd recommend to anyone.
那是我会向所有人推荐的菜肴。
They're sweet, glutinous rice balls, but Ningbo -style ones are special.
它们是甜甜的糯米球，但宁波风味的尤为特殊。
They're filled with a mixture of black sesame paste, sugar, and a little bit of lard.
里面包裹着黑芝麻馅、糖和少许猪油的混合物。
When you bite into one, this warm, smooth, sweet filling just flows out.
当你咬下一口，那温暖、细腻、甜美的馅料就会流淌出来。
The sesame aroma hits you right away.
芝麻的香气立刻扑鼻而来。
It's comfort food at its absolute best.
这 是绝对顶级的治愈系美食。
Oh, that sounds heavenly.
哦，那听起来真是绝妙。
I'm practically tasting it right now.
我现在几乎都能品尝到那个味道了。
And then you have to try the drunken crab, Zui xie.
然后你一定要尝尝醉蟹。
Fresh blue crabs marinated in soy sauce and Shaoxing yellow wine.
用酱油和绍兴黄酒腌制的新鲜梭子蟹。
The crab meat becomes silky, almost like butter, with this deep, savory, and slightly sweet flavor
蟹肉变得顺滑，几乎像奶油一样，带有深沉、鲜美且微微发甜的风味
from the wine.
来自于酒香。
It's served cold, and it's one of those dishes that makes you stop and just appreciate how good
这道菜冷盘上桌，是那种能让你 停下来品味
simple ingredients can be.
简单食材能有多么美味的菜肴之一。
Silky crabs soaked in yellow wine?
浸泡在黄酒里的丝滑蟹肉？
Okay, that sounds amazing.
好吧，那听起来太棒了。
Where would someone go to try all of this in Ningbo?
在宁波，大家可以去哪里品尝这一切呢？
Nantang Old Street.
南塘老街。
That's the place.
就是那个地方。
It's near the old south gate of the city, and it's been a food hub for over 500 years.
它靠近老城南门，500多年来一直是个美食枢纽。
The street has been beautifully restored with Ming and Qing dynasty architecture.
这条街经过精美的修复，保留了明清时期的建筑风格。
You walk along these narrow lanes, and there are vendors selling tong yuan, rice cakes, seafood
你穿行在狭窄的小巷里，有摊贩在售卖汤圆、年糕、海鲜
skewers, all kinds of traditional snacks.
烤串，以及各种传统小吃。
The smell of sesame and fried dough just fills the air.
芝麻和油炸面团的香气弥漫在空气中。
It's like stepping back in time, but with a full stomach.
这就像是重踏回过去，不过是带着饱饱的肚子。
That sounds like my kind of time travel.
这听起来真是我喜欢的那种时光旅行。
Now, speaking of old and new, I've heard Ningbo has a really interesting waterfront area, too.
说到新旧交融，我听说宁波也有一个非常有意思的滨水区域。
The Old Bund?
老外滩？
Yes, the Ningbo Old Bund, or Lao Wai Tan.
是的，宁波老外滩，或者叫 Lao Wai Tan。
And here's a fact that really surprises people.
而且这里有个事实真的让人挺惊奇的。
It's actually older than Shanghai's Bund.
它实际上比上海的外滩还要古老。
Ningbo became a treaty port in 1844, about 20 years before Shanghai's waterfront really developed.
宁波在1844年就成为了条约口岸，比上海外滩真正发展起来早了大约20年。
So you've got these beautiful 19th century European -style buildings, old trading houses, and former
所以你能看到那些建于19世纪的美丽欧式建筑、古老的洋行，以及以前的
consulates, sitting right alongside modern bars, cafes, and art galleries.
领事馆，它们就紧挨着现代化的酒吧、咖啡馆和艺术画廊。
So it's like a living timeline.
所以它就像是一条活生生的时间线。
Colonial history meeting contemporary culture?
殖民历史与当代文化的碰撞？
Exactly.
确切如此。
In the daytime, it's peaceful.
在白天，这里非常宁静。
You can walk along the river and admire the architecture, but at night, it completely transforms.
你可以沿着江边散步，欣赏建筑，但到了晚上，它会彻底蜕变。
The buildings light up, music spills out of the restaurants, and it becomes this vibrant social
建筑被灯光点亮，音乐从餐厅里飘溢出来，变成了一个充满活力的社交
scene.
场所。
I used to go there with my colleagues after work, and every time, I was struck by how naturally the
我以前下班后经常和同事去那里，每次我都深感震撼，老事物与新事物居然能如此自然地
old and the new sit together.
融合在一起。
That contrast sounds really special.
那种对比听起来真的很特别。
And I want to ask about one more modern landmark, the Ningbo Museum.
我还想问问另一个现代地标，宁波博物馆。
I've seen photos, and it looks like nothing else.
我看过照片，它的造型简直绝无仅有。
It's extraordinary.
它真的很非凡。
The museum was designed by Wang Shu, who won the Pritzker Prize.
这座博物馆是由赢得普利兹克奖的王澍设计的。
That's basically the Nobel Prize of Architecture.
那基本上就是建筑界的诺贝尔奖。
What he did was collect old tiles, bricks, and stones from demolished traditional buildings around
他所做的是从宁波周边被拆除的传统建筑中收集旧瓦片、砖块和石头，
Ningbo, and he used them to build the walls of this massive modern structure.
并用它们建造了这座宏伟的现代建筑的墙体。
So the museum itself is a piece of art that tells Ningbo's story.
所以博物馆本身就是一件讲述宁波故事的艺术品。
The old materials become part of a new creation.
旧材料成为了新创作的一部分。
That's such a powerful idea, recycling the city's own history into a new building.
这是一个非常强大的理念，把城市自身的历史循环利用融入到新建筑中。
It's like the city is literally built from its past.
这就像是这座城市切实地建构在其过去之上。
That's exactly the philosophy.
这正是其设计理念。
And I think it sums up Ningbo perfectly.
而且我认为它完美地概括了宁波。
This is a city that doesn't just preserve its past in glass cases.
这是一座不仅把历史珍藏在玻璃展柜里的城市。
It weaves it into everyday life.
它将历史融入到了日常生活中。
You see it in the food, in the architecture, in the way people talk about their hometown.
你在美食中、在建筑中，以及在人们谈论自己家乡的方式中都能看到这一点。
There's a real sense of pride, but also a forward -looking energy.
这里有一种真正的自豪感，同时还有一种前瞻性的活力。
And the port, I mean, Ningbo -Joshin port is absolutely massive today, isn't it?
还有港口，我是说，现在的宁波-舟山港规模绝对非常庞大，对吧？
It's one of the busiest ports in the entire world by cargo volume.
按货物吞吐量计算，它是全世界最繁忙的港口之一。
So this maritime spirit that started thousands of years ago with those ancient traders and sailors,
所以这种数千年前由古老的商人与水手开启的海洋精神，
it's still alive.
依然生生不息。
Ningbo is still a gateway connecting China to the rest of the world.
宁波依然是连接中国与世界其他地方的门户。
The tradition just never stopped.
这种传统从未中断。
From ancient rice farmers to a modern global port and everything in between.
从古代的稻农到现代的全球大港，以及这之间的所有一切。
Libraries, fermented delicacies, mahjong, Pritzker Prize architecture.
图书馆、发酵美食、麻将、普利兹克奖建筑。
Nathan, this has been such a fantastic conversation.
内森，这真是一场精彩的对话。
Thank you for sharing your love for Ningbo with us.
感谢你与我们分享你对宁波的热爱。
Thank you, Olivia.
感谢你，奥莉维亚。
Ningbo deserves more attention.
宁波值得得到更多的关注。
And I hope this episode inspires some of our listeners to go explore it for themselves.
我希望这一期节目能启发我们的一些听众亲自去探索它。
Trust me, once you walk those old streets and taste that first bowl of Tang Yuan, you'll be hooked.
相信我，一旦你走过那些老街，尝到第一碗汤圆，你就会彻底着迷。
I have no doubt about that.
对此我毫不怀疑。
And before we wrap up, here's a question for all of you listening.
在结束之前，我想问所有听众一个问题。
Ningbo's name means calm waves.
宁波的名字意思是平静的波浪。
If you could rename your own hometown based on a feature of its landscape or spirit, what name would
如果你可以根据家乡的风景特点或精神风貌来重新命名，你会
you give it and why?
给它起什么名字，为什么呢？
Write your answer in the comments and while you're there, check out what other listeners have said.
请在评论区写下你的答案，顺便看看其他听众都说了些什么。
I always love reading those.
我总是非常喜欢阅读那些留言。
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to Talkcast and share it with a friend who loves
如果你喜欢今天的这集节目，请订阅 Talkcast，并分享给同样喜欢
culture, travel, or a good story.
文化、旅行或好故事的朋友。
Your feedback and support mean everything to us and keep the show going.
您的反馈和支持对我们至关重要，也是节目继续前行的动力。
Also, a reminder that the full English transcript of this episode and others in the series will be
另外提醒一下，本集及本系列其他节目的英文完整逐字稿将
published regularly on the Talkcast WeChat official account.
在 Talkcast 微信公众号上定期发布。
So if you'd like to read along and study the text, head over there.
所以如果你想边听边看并学习文本，请前往公众号。
And finally, leave a comment and tell us.
最后，请留言告诉我们。
What place or topic would you like us to explore next?
下一次你希望我们探索什么地方或主题？
Your suggestions help shape future episodes.
您的建议有助于塑造未来的节目内容。
Until next time, keep exploring and stay curious.
下期见，保持探索，保持好奇。
See you on the next Talkcast Discovery.
我们在下一期 Talkcast 探索节目中再见。
